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invisifan

Beitrag: # 11636Beitrag invisifan
28. Juni 2006 20:35

The 5 books being discussed are essentially licenced commercial products, and aside from (I'm assuming) approving the licencing I seriously doubt there was any input from Uderzo (they were done from 1982-1992) ... they consist of modified swipes from the albums with text (which is basically advertisement).

In addition to these (and with the same format, which makes me think the unknown you describe is one of these) there are 8 books which are not commercial -- though apparently mildly didactic and aimed at a younger audience -- and do have some (small amount of) original art ...

These are all originally French but have been translated to Dutch, German and Portuguese (that I'm certain of - and probably other languages as well) and have the R.Goscinny-A.Uderzo banner displayed prominently along with a logo of Asterix, Obelix & Dogmatix next to the title (the same as the 2 Dogmatix books Uderzo did at the same time) ... If you have the French title I can tell you for certain.

SingingGandalf

Beitrag: # 11638Beitrag SingingGandalf
28. Juni 2006 21:50

It was called 'Histoires de voyages' and it says that it was published in 1992. I bought it for around £7. It looks like some of the other books shown, but I have never seen it's name come up before. I'll say more when it arrives. Does anyone know what it is?

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Erik
AsterIX Druid
Beiträge: 6948
Registriert: 8. August 2004 17:55
Wohnort: Deutschland

Beitrag: # 11640Beitrag Erik
28. Juni 2006 21:59

Hello,
SingingGandalf hat geschrieben:it is currently something I do not have, though it is an amazon seller selling it, and not amazon itself, and the seller doesn't give the condition.
in fact he does give the condition. It is stated as "Very good". So, for my understanding a "very good" conditioned poster book has to be complete. But there might be small risk anyway. That's your decision, of course.
invisifan hat geschrieben:The 5 books being discussed are essentially licenced commercial products, and aside from (I'm assuming) approving the licencing I seriously doubt there was any input from Uderzo [...] they consist of modified swipes from the albums with text (which is basically advertisement).
That's exactly what I wanted to say in my pre-previous post.
invisifan hat geschrieben:In addition to these (and with the same format, which makes me think the unknown you describe is one of these) there are 8 books which are not commercial -- though apparently mildly didactic and aimed at a younger audience -- and do have some (small amount of) original art [...] These are all originally French but have been translated to Dutch, German and Portuguese [...]
I'm not sure which books you have in mind. But if you are thinking of the children's books like "La course de chars", "L'Abominable Horrifix", "Jericocorix", "L'eau du ciel", "Le Feu de pommes", "Marmaille et pagaille", "Les pirates" etc., they do not contain any original Uderzo-art. There are indeed some new or modified drawings, but they are obviously not Uderzo-quality. And futhermore, these books unfortunately weren't ever translated to German.
invisifan hat geschrieben:(the same as the 2 Dogmatix books Uderzo did at the same time)
I doubt, that Uderzo created either the mentioned children's book or the 2 Idefix/Dogmatix books you are referring to himself. Unless you or anyone else can give me a proof for this "fact", I won't believe it. Uderzo's and Goscinny's names are set on many books, including the commercial ones mentioned before. That has nothing to do with the real authorship. All these books are probably only licensed publications from other no-name-authors.

Concerning the "unknown" Asterix album about the voyages: Perhaps you mean this one, SingingGandalf? It is part of a series of 3 albums containing scenes from the original Asterix albums but without any new stories.

Regards
Erik

edit: Oh... SingingGandalf was faster than me. So, it is clear now. You meant the album I had in mind.
"Alle sollt ihr noch sehen, daß ich habe recht!" (Erik der Blonde, Die große Überfahrt, S. 5)

SingingGandalf

Beitrag: # 11655Beitrag SingingGandalf
29. Juni 2006 17:54

Erik hat geschrieben:And futhermore, these books unfortunately weren't ever translated to German.
At least they were in Dutch, which is fairly similar to German I believe, but it is also not available in English.
Concerning the "unknown" Asterix album about the voyages: Perhaps you mean this one, SingingGandalf? It is part of a series of 3 albums containing scenes from the original Asterix albums but without any new stories.

Yes, that is the album

invisifan

Beitrag: # 11677Beitrag invisifan
2. Juli 2006 17:46

Erik hat geschrieben:I'm not sure which books you have in mind. But if you are thinking of the children's books like "La course de chars", "L'Abominable Horrifix", "Jericocorix", "L'eau du ciel", "Le Feu de pommes", "Marmaille et pagaille", "Les pirates" etc., they do not contain any original Uderzo-art. There are indeed some new or modified drawings, but they are obviously not Uderzo-quality.
90% of the art is definitely Uderzo's in the form of skilfully modified swipes from a variety of albums... however the art that is original does appear to be Uderzo's style & quality (but if it's really his ART is really difficult to tell for certain).
And futhermore, these books unfortunately weren't ever translated to German.
My mistake - but Dutch & Portuguese definitely ...
invisifan hat geschrieben:(the same as the 2 Dogmatix books Uderzo did at the same time)
I doubt, that Uderzo created either the mentioned children's book or the 2 Idefix/Dogmatix books you are referring to himself. Unless you or anyone else can give me a proof for this "fact", I won't believe it. Uderzo's and Goscinny's names are set on many books, including the commercial ones mentioned before. That has nothing to do with the real authorship. All these books are probably only licensed publications from other no-name-authors.
While there's no way to compare writing in this case (having gone through translations) and the 8 children's books are rather problematic ... nonetheless there is a certain amount of circumstantial evidence particularly for the Dogmatix books:
  • all of these appear in the 4 year gap between "Asterix & Son" and "Magic Carpet" when Uderzo suddenly stopped producing Asterix volumes at a rate of about 1 per year ...
  • the Dogmatix stories have a degree of continuity with each other & with Asterix (unlike their predecessors) and were translated by Hockridge & Bell (who did not translate the other Dogmatix books -- which were definitely not by Uderzo or Goscinny)
  • the Dogmatix stories appear to roughly FOLLOW the Chantaclerix story from the class act - which had been conceived some time earlier but never published...
  • the Dogmatix character introduction page (patterned after the equivalent page for Asterix) includes Chantaclerix' eagle, the owl from the Big Fight, the rooster from "Jericocorix" who looks a LOT like Chantaclerix himself -- with differences primarily for the evolution of Uderzo's style and a much more Franco-patriotic colour scheme ... (note that he is does not appear in the Dogmatix stories...
  • Aside from the character intro page, the menhir-themed "also in this series" back cover for the Dogmatix books matches that for Asterix stories (but is unique to these 2 books) and the cover layout, logos & lettering are identical across all 10 of these (and consistent with Asterix volumes of the same period) ... they were also (unlike the commercial books) released through the same channels as the normal stories).

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Erik
AsterIX Druid
Beiträge: 6948
Registriert: 8. August 2004 17:55
Wohnort: Deutschland

Beitrag: # 11695Beitrag Erik
3. Juli 2006 19:33

Hello invisifan,
invisifan hat geschrieben:
Erik hat geschrieben:I'm not sure which books you have in mind. But if you are thinking of the children's books like "La course de chars", "L'Abominable Horrifix", "Jericocorix", "L'eau du ciel", "Le Feu de pommes", "Marmaille et pagaille", "Les pirates" etc., they do not contain any original Uderzo-art. There are indeed some new or modified drawings, but they are obviously not Uderzo-quality.
90% of the art is definitely Uderzo's in the form of skilfully modified swipes from a variety of albums...
Ok, but the art itself is just copied from already existing scenes of the Asterix adventures. The modifications (e.g. the wild boar burger in "Horrifix") don't look much like Uderzo's art for my eyes.
invisifan hat geschrieben:all of these appear in the 4 year gap between "Asterix & Son" and "Magic Carpet" when Uderzo suddenly stopped producing Asterix volumes at a rate of about 1 per year ...
Well, he did not produce a single children's book in the 4 or 5 year gaps between the later Asterix albums (e.g. between secret weapon (1991) and Obelix all at sea (1996)). He just became a bit idle in his older days.
invisifan hat geschrieben:the Dogmatix stories have a degree of continuity with each other & with Asterix (unlike their predecessors) and were translated by Hockridge & Bell (who did not translate the other Dogmatix books -- which were definitely not by Uderzo or Goscinny)
I agree with you that the quality of the previous Dogmatix albums is heavily lower. But that doesn't have to say anything about the authorship of the better ones. A good book writer (and I doubt Uderzo is a highly gifted writer) is able to create a couple of Dogmatix books, which have a very high degree of continuity to all the other Asterix albums. And in the German edition, they weren't translated by the Asterix translator of that time, Gudrun Penndorf. The fact, that Hockridge & Bell did translate the english edition might find its reason in the fact, that the books were published by Hodder & Stoughton, for which they worked. In Germany this two Dogmatix books weren't published by the Asterix publisher Ehapa, but by another small publisher (which does not exist any more today) named Remus Verlag. The 8 other children's books weren't published in Germany at all. It's hard to believe that Ehapa wouldn't have published these stories in Germany if it was really original Uderzo's work. Asterix is very popular in Germany, you know...
invisifan hat geschrieben:the Dogmatix stories appear to roughly FOLLOW the Chantaclerix story from the class act - which had been conceived some time earlier but never published...
No. The foreword of "Chanticleerix" in class act only says, that the idea for a story with Dogmatix as a protagonist (as a cartoon movie) had arisen when Goscinny was still alive. But this doesn't mean, that this short story itself already existed in a dark corner of Uderzo's workroom or elsewhere before. It was created for the class act in 2003. Furthermore the fact, that Uderzo created this story is an argument against Uderzo's authorship concerning the 2 Dogmatix books. If he was the author he would have accepted these stories as a part of his work and the Asterix-universe. So he wouldn't have created a new antagonist but reactivated his characters from the previous stories. But if these books are only licensed work from other authors, it makes sense, that Uderzo did not rely on these stories when creating "Chanticleerix".
invisifan hat geschrieben:the Dogmatix character introduction page (patterned after the equivalent page for Asterix) includes Chantaclerix' eagle, the owl from the Big Fight, the rooster from "Jericocorix" who looks a LOT like Chantaclerix himself
Maybe the 8 children's books' author is the same one who has written the 2 Dogmatix books. He probably knew all the Asterix adventures and did a licensed production for the younger Asterix fans. That doesn't have to say that Uderzo himself had to do anything with it. The resemblance of "Jericocorix" and "Chanticleerix" is evident, as the gaulish rooster appeared in the Asterix albums quite early (e.g. in mansions (1971)). Uderzo as well as the "Jericocorix"-drawer - who ever he was - oriented themselves on this already existing rooster.
invisifan hat geschrieben:the menhir-themed "also in this series" back cover for the Dogmatix books [...] they were also (unlike the commercial books) released through the same channels as the normal stories).
If they had the license to create Dogmatix books based on the Asterix adventures, they probably had also the liense to use the backcover style. And it will have been of advantage to sell a book, which looks much like the original Asterix albums to reach a recognition effect. That does not have to do anything with the authorship of the interior as well. - And by the way: The German edition don't neither have the same size as an Asterix album nor the same backcover style as any Asterix album.
invisifan hat geschrieben:there is a certain amount of circumstantial evidence particularly for the Dogmatix books
After this all, there's really no evidence for me. Sorry, invisifan, but you couldn't convince me. For my opinion the authorship is still unclear. And in my eyes it is quite unlikely, that Uderzo himself is the one who created these stories. The new art, which is not taken from an Asterix album, does not look much like Uderzo-quality, I'm afraid.

Regards
Erik

PS: Did you find any of these books on the official Asterix website? I don't. It would be surprising, if original Uderzo works which belong to the Asterix series don't appear on the official site with a single word.
"Alle sollt ihr noch sehen, daß ich habe recht!" (Erik der Blonde, Die große Überfahrt, S. 5)

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